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Welcome to the Bootloader, I'm Tod Kurt. And I'm Paul Cutler. Tod and I each have a couple of

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interesting things to share with you, and you'll want to stay till the end of the episode for a

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special announcement. But first we have a special interview with Debra Ansell. Debra is known

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for her work with LEDs and you can find her at geekmomprojects.com. She also goes by Geek Mom

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Projects on Instagram and Mastodon, which I'll link to in the show notes. Debra, welcome to

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the show. You were at Teardown 2024 this past June. Tell me about Teardown.

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Hi, Paul, thanks. And it was a wonderful experience. I still have, you know, warm fuzzy

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flashbacks to moments that happened there. So I'm really happy to talk about it. It was

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unreservedly the best MakerCon I have attended. Now I haven't attended a wide variety of them,

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but I've attended a number. And I think there were a confluence of factors that made it such a fun,

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enjoyable, stimulating, welcoming event. So that's an open ended question. But I'll start with

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for people who don't know what Teardown is, I strongly recommend finding and maybe you can link

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to this on your website, an interview that Helen Leigh had with David Groom about what Teardown is

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and what goes into it, because she gives a really good explainer from an insider's perspective. So

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I will probably, you know, misstate the purpose of it and all that. But from my perspective, it was

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a place to go, bring some projects, find people who are interested in similar projects or might

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have different interests, but that are in the same world space that really are happy to talk about

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them and want to share them and, you know, meet like minded people and kind of see what's going

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on in the community in person where you can have real conversations one on one or in small groups.

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And it was a really wonderful combination of attending talks, hanging out with friends who I

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had a group of friends whom I knew would be there, meeting new people from a wide range of backgrounds

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and circumstances, and, you know, meeting some people I'd met only online and meeting some people

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I'd never met before. And there were some people who didn't know about it and came last minute who

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I would like fit in perfectly there. I'd mentioned the talks, there were workshops, there were

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people, there was great food and drink that Helen took great pains to source from interesting local

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restaurants in the Portland community. And there was a chance to explore Portland. They took great

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care to not only have, you know, talks and presentations during the day, but provide events

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over the couple days before and the day after and evening events where we could all kind of unwind

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and hang out in slightly different spaces that give you a chance to see the local environments.

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And, you know, hang out in a fun place that was a little different. So you're constantly getting to

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see a little bit, things that are a little bit new, explore Portland with, you know, people who may

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not know it either, and talk tech, but in interesting ways.

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What was one of the highlights of the city of Portland for you?

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The highlight, in an interesting way, they went out of their way to create a geocaching style

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scavenger hunt event, which they put a tremendous amount of effort into, and I think was very clever

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and not everybody was into it. I like a little game like this in a competition so that you ended up

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divided into teams and you had to run all over Portland to pick up these clues, which they were

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magnets hidden to whatever magnetic thing they could find in various landmarks all over the city.

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Now, it turns out our team, not so good at the clues, but incredibly persistent. So we probably

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went about three times the mileage that you were supposed to do.

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Sure.

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And we were actually conventioning and complaining a great deal, but it was a great bonding

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experience. It was actually, it was, I knew none of the people on my team super well. And by the

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time we came out of this, what probably should have been a much shorter event than we made it, we

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had bonded tremendously over this whole chance to run around Portland, look for these clues, decode

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these puzzles. And again, not everybody was into it. And we certainly lost a few people along the

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way, but got a certain sense of satisfaction out of finishing with this group. And I learned about

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the bridges in Portland, which are maybe the nice ones, and which is that apparently there's

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different colleges in there. So I thought that was a fun way to integrate the city into the

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convention. And also they had scheduled, for example, a dinner the first night at Autodesk that

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is near to where Tear Down was. And the convention itself took place in the Lloyd Center, which is a

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semi-abandoned mall. And that in and of itself became kind of a character in the convention,

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because it is semi-abandoned, but in this weird, wonderful way that there are a few, there's an

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Annie's Pretzels and there's a, there's probably a Cinnabon somewhere. And those typical mall

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staples, and then a lot of empty storefronts that locals, that you can rent for cheap. So locals

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have taken it over and there's like, they've converted one retail store into a roller skating

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rink. You like look inside the storefront, there are people roller skating in circles, and there's

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still an ice skating rink downstairs. So it's this kind of interesting, wonderful fantasy location

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that you could, you're in a mall, and I grew up in the 80s in malls. So maybe that's personally

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resonant with me. For me in particular, it was a lot of fun because I, it was in a converted GAP

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store. And I had recently made a batch of denim jackets as my most recent project of illuminated

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LED denim jackets. So they were perfect as an installation in a GAP store. And I got to display

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those too. And I got to use the GAP theme in my, instead of GAP kids, it was GAP LEDs.

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Oh, that's awesome.

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It was fantastic and not my idea. I have to give Allie, my friend Allie, who was there, all the props

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for coming up with that idea. And she said it and I said, wait, that's perfect. And she helped me

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style my display and made it fun. It let your imagination run wild a little bit. It was a

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character. It was a presence in and of itself to be in this mall at this convention.

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That's very cool.

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Yeah.

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Speaking of the mall, what were some of your favorite installations at Teardown?

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Well, of course, I'm partial to the LED installations. And Ben Henke, with the help of

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Claire Cassidy, put together a wonderful Pixel Blaze demonstration with all the wonderful things

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you can do with Pixel Blaze LED controller. Jason Coon, you know, who's a good friend of mine, a

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good maker friend, brought a number of his Fibonacci boards and put together. And it was nice

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because you get, you got a reserved space in the GAP store. So his went up across a wall and that

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was the LED lounge area. So they were, they had put beanbags and a sofa beneath it. So you could

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lounge surrounded by beautiful LED art installations. And then I got to meet and talk to

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somebody who had only briefly really talked to before, Aisha, and I cannot pronounce her last

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name, who does wonderful LED PCBs and gave a really great talk there. Oh, and a friend of mine,

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Charlyn Gonda, who is, goes by Charlyn online, had brought her LED jewelry, a subset, but it's

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still wonderful and amazing to look at. So that's the LED overview. And it was all wonderful. But

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there were also other fun things like somebody brought an electron microscope, which I didn't

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have a chance to check out, which I'm sorry I didn't, but showed people how to use it. Somebody

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was showing, I guess it's not as much an installation, but it was, it wasn't a workshop.

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They had a wire bonding machine and I had never seen, you know, people wire bonding, you know,

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dies on, you know, tiny, tiny PCBs before. And that was fun to watch. So I'm sure there's much

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more and I'm, I may pop up with something in the middle of this interview, but, but it was

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actually really fun the way you were kind of lounging amongst all the installations. And yeah,

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I was certainly drawn to and appreciative of all the LED art that was there.

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We were chatting before we started recording about the vibe of the convention.

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What were some of the other things that, that fed that vibe?

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I give all the props in the world to Helen Leigh, who really poured herself, heart, mind, and soul

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into organizing it. And Josh Lifton, who I think runs CrowdSupply for letting her run with it. And

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also obviously doing a lot to make it work as well. But from the beginning, Helen, you know,

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she worked, clearly worked very hard on it and reached out quite early to people to say, you

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know, we're looking to create this inclusive, diverse, interesting, welcoming environment.

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And you do have something to contribute. So she set a tone and an expectation early.

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She ambitiously, you know, took on a venue that didn't come with wifi or anything built in,

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but obviously spent a lot of time thinking about what could work and did a very good job of it.

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Because Teardown last year was at Portland State University. So this was a new venue for them.

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First of all, the first step was the expectation setting that this is a place for everybody.

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Like, you know, do you know anybody who maybe hasn't spoken before who'd like to,

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do you know somebody who has, who doesn't get recognition for what they do, who should,

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you know, be displaying here. And so it was clear from the beginning that this was going to be a

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welcoming environment, whether or not you're a big name or, you know, very casual hobbyist with an

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interest. And that was really nice. And it was designed with conversation and connection in mind

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very clearly from the layout of the spaces by building in lounge areas where people could sit

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and talk to building in gaps in the schedule that were really, for me, who, you know,

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I get a little overwhelmed being in large crowds of people for a long time.

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I could either talk to people or I could kind of just duck out and have like a few moments

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to myself without feeling like I was missing too much. I appreciated that on both fronts.

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The time, the space, the planning of events, of social events afterwards that, like, you know,

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I mentioned, you know, going to Autodesk for a big party for planning this, you know, these team

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geocaching hunt all over Portland for planning a meeting at a video game bar that made it very

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easy to engage with others and like, you know, something of interest to kind of everybody. And

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for me, you know, there's some people who just want to go and talk nothing but tech,

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which is great too. You could certainly do that, but it gave you other interesting things to look

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at and comment on too. So it put it all in kind of the context of you're in this city that is a

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great place to be. And let's all bring all these projects and topics that we love together here,

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but let's also interact with, you know, the community around us, or at least, you know,

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find out what's interesting in the community around us while we're here. So it's engagement.

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There's a lot of engagement, a lot of planning. It was nicely planned and nicely announced. So

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you knew what was going to happen at any moment. There was no trying to figure things out. A lot

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of space was provided. I think what also contributed to the vibe was it was a conscious decision

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at Teardown, for example, not to have badge hacking, because while it's, you know, it's a

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wonderful and exciting event, I'm not sure why they did this. This is my take on why not having

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badge hacking was actually a positive in this circumstance is it can introduce a level of kind

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of competition and one-upsmanship that was absent. And it also can drive people to kind of work

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solo, which again, they produce amazing things. And at the end, it's very cool,

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but really the events were designed for communication and connection. So I think

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that was purposely omitted from the roster. So yeah, a lot of factors were just kind of

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well thought out. And I think to also went to great lengths just to make people feel included,

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as I mentioned to you, I think before the show, you know, a great icebreaker. You know,

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when I go to a convention like this, I always feel like I've found my people because you always have

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something in common to talk about. And my big icebreaker question is if I don't know what else

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to say, so what are you interested in? What do you like to do? Because people always have a good

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answer to that. One of the people I asked said, you know, I've just been interested in learning

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about programmable electronics. I didn't know anything about it, but I was told to come by

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and, you know, learn about them here. And so complete newbie, but he had a great time.

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He was, and people were really happy to talk to him. You know, every maker I've ever met is super

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happy to talk about what they're doing and show it off. So it was, you know, he had a great time

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listening to people and people were happy to encourage him and to give him tips to, you know,

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where he might go to pursue his interests. So it just felt like it was kind of an equalizer

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because there were also some people, there were people with pretty big YouTube followings who,

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you had maybe a parasocial relationship with them, but it was, you know, but you got a chance to just

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kind of talk to them and they're normal people too, just as much as the guy who'd never done

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a single electronics project, you know, by himself. And yeah, you just had this feeling

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that kind of everybody was in the same space, sharing the same experiences.

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That is awesome to hear. What a great conference.

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Yeah. Yeah, it really was wonderful. Really had a great time. And it didn't hurt that

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some of my favorite makers who I do know and adore were there and we just brought the party,

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but it was a party that everybody was really happy to engage in. So, you know, it was great.

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And I'll link to some of those makers in the show notes as well.

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Debra, thanks so much for being on the show.

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Oh, Paul, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

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Thanks to Debra for that interview. Teardown sounded like a really good time.

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Yeah, I was bummed I wasn't able to go to this year.

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It sounds just like a great group of makers there between Charlyn and Jason Coon and Ben

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Henke, I think was there, she said. Yeah, all the cool folks.

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Yeah, all the folks that I would want to actually meet someday. So I might have to put this one on

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my bucket list as well. Yep.

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What's your first one for us this episode?

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All right. So you know me, I'm all about the DIY synth stuff.

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I'm a big fan of synth libraries for microcontrollers. Some of my favorites are the

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Mozzie for Arduino synth library and CircuitPython's Synth.io. But I've also used the Teensy Audio

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Library, which is sort of the standard bearer for a lot of the good audio projects out there.

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And there's also Daisy, the Daisy Seed, which is like used in professional products.

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And there's others. But all of them have the problem of, you know, how do I get things wired

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up to make sound? Because they're a library. They're not a physical thing. And then once you

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have something that actually makes sound, it still requires a good amount of programming

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and synthesis knowledge to make something that sounds cool.

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Well, there's this project that's been around for a while called the Tulip Creative Computer,

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and it tries to solve some of these problems. And it solves a bunch of other problems too.

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But the main one is like, how do you make music? I've been following it for a while,

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and lately it's gotten really interesting. It's a ESP32 based device you can buy right now for

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60 bucks. It includes a seven inch touchscreen, high quality audio deck, MIDI I/O, a battery,

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and yeah, ESP32 processor on it. It runs a custom version of MicroPython,

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and it's set up so you can plug in a USB keyboard and just start typing into it directly. You don't

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have to have a computer to program it. You can program it by itself. And because you're, you

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start out with just the REPL, the MicroPython REPL, it's sort of a live coding music environment.

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If you want it to be like the Sonic Pi project, which is really fun by the way, if you have a

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Raspberry Pi and want to make music kind of live coding, I highly recommend trying out Sonic Pi.

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But unlike the Sonic Pi, there's no hassle of getting a Raspberry Pi running.

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Because it's a microcontroller, it just starts up instantly. It's just kind of cool. But wait,

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there's more. Did I say it's a device? It's actually a fully open source project,

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and you can build one yourself if you've got an ESP32 S3 board and a touchscreen.

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And the Tulip designers provide a bunch of guides depending on what specific hardware you have.

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So you can like kind of cobble together from parts you might already have in your

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shoebox full of electronics to make your own little Tulip thing. There's also a

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desktop Tulip emulator if you want to try it out just like on any computer that runs Python.

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And to get back to the synth libraries, on the physical microcontroller side,

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Tulip uses the Amy synth library, AMY, which is the C library that has bindings in both Arduino

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and Python. And it's a really interesting take on a synth library in that it doesn't

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try to be super low level. It mostly tries to say, "Here's a bunch of synthesizer recreations

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with patches you can just load up." So you don't have to like hook things together like a modular

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synth the way you have to do in Mozzie or Synth.io. You just like say, "Load up this DX7 sound," and

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you get to play electric piano or whatever. And it's got drum machines and a bunch of other things.

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You can go low level if you want, but by default, you don't have to. So I have a Tulip coming.

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Should be here maybe next week. And I'll include links to all this in the show notes.

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I watched the video that we'll link to, and you didn't even touch on one of the cooler parts. So

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you start off at the REPL, but then you just hit an icon in the lower right-hand side of the screen,

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and you can choose from different modes. You can put it into synthesizer mode or drum sequencer

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mode. So to your point, you don't need to know the libraries and the coding to actually make

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that happen. If you do, you get that level of control, but they also have a UI for all of that,

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which I thought was really interesting. Yeah, and the way that it's set up is that

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you can have all these functions, the drum machine function, the synthesizer functions,

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kind of all running in the background, and you can still have the REPL controlling it.

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Like you essentially controlling it via MIDI, or MIDI as in quotes. If this was a video,

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you'd see my fingers going wiggle wiggle. It's really interesting because in Arduino and

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CircuitPython, to rewire the synthesizer, you essentially stop the synthesizer, rewire it,

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start it back up again. But in the Tulip case, while it's running, you're kind of unplugging

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it in real time and reloading things and changing it and stuff. And so it's really interesting.

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I can't wait to play with it. Yeah, for 60 bucks, how can you go wrong?

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Totally right. That was my number one. So Paul, what's your number one this week?

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I'm going to go back to the well on code editors. I didn't know that I had a thing for testing code

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editors, but apparently I do. After previously talking about JetBrains fleet way back in

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episode three and recently covering the CircuitPython online IDE by River Wang, I have two

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more to share. First up is ViperIDE, an online IDE for MicroPython and CircuitPython, made by

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Volodymyr Shymanskyy, I hope I pronounced that right. I apologize if I didn't, who is the co-founder

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of BlinkIO, an IoT cloud platform. Like other browser-based solutions, ViperIDE requires Chrome

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or Edge because it requires web serial to work, which isn't available in Firefox or Safari.

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One of the really innovative things about it is that you can connect your boards via USB like you

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would expect, but there's also support for web REPL over the internet or local network, Bluetooth,

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and P2P WebRTC support. It includes features you would expect in an IDE, including syntax

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highlighting for Python, JSON, TOML, and more, and it has a viewer for markdown files and can

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auto expand and minify JSON files just like a big IDE would. You can also install it as a

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progressive web app so it looks and feels like an app, not just a browser or browser tab. And it

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includes a terminal, and I'm putting quotes around that. What you really see is the REPL, the serial

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console. Unlike any of the web editors who do have a serial printout, this includes that, but the

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terminal also allows you to interact with the REPL, which is really cool, and I haven't seen it in

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another online IDE. It's definitely MicroPython-focused. For example, there's buttons for

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soft reset and hard reset, which is handy, but the hard reset button doesn't work in CircuitPython

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as it calls the machine function used in MicroPython to reset it. It also includes support

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for MicroPython's package manager right in the IDE, making it simple to import libraries.

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It's running MicroPython compiled to WebAssembly right in your browser, and you can even try it

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with an emulator in your browser as well. It's really well done. I've included links to a review

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from Les Pounder at Tom's Hardware and Mr. Shymanskyy's recent visit to the PyCast show as well.

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Next up is another editor called Zed. Zed's been around for a little less than a year for macOS

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and just recently released a Linux version, which is how it caught my eye. This is an editor in IDE

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for folks who miss Atom or Sublime Text and don't need all the features of a full-blown IDE,

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like features found in VS Code or PyCharm, like a profiler, for example.

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Zed is from the creators of Atom, and it's also open source. Right from their home page,

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here's how they describe Zed. Zed is a high-performance, multiplayer code editor,

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and unrelenting performance keeps you in the flow and makes other tools feel slow.

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You'll note I said "multiplayer" in the description. It includes the ability for

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multiple developers to collaborate and edit code together within a shared workspace,

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which is similar to JetBrains Spaces. If you're collaborating with someone, it has the ability

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to jump to your teammate's location right in the code and vice versa, and has a built-in screen

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sharing tool. There's a few things it doesn't have, such as Git integration, but if you're

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comfortable at the command line, that's really not a big deal. It also doesn't automatically pick up

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Python virtual environments. You have to edit a JSON configuration by hand and point to the

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location of your virtual environment. And then one other thing that I did discover that was

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interesting is that it uses pyright as a linter right out of the box. pyright is a static type

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checker for Python, and I opened my big web app with built-in fast API and had all these squiggly

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lines with pyright telling me that all my code was wrong, and I did a double-take. I'm like,

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"No one's telling me my code's wrong," so I was digging into what pyright is.

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But if you're an intermediate to advanced user and you're okay at the command line and just want a

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fast code editor, check out ZADD. I'm giving it a chance as my daily driver, and so far I'm really

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liking it. Yeah, I've been running it for a couple weeks now, using it to edit CircuitPython and

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Markdown files. And yeah, it's fast and pretty easy to set up. It kind of reminds me of Sublime

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Text, but like Sublime Text from five years ago or whatever, when it was simpler. It's definitely

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a lot simpler and faster than VS Code, which has become a bit ungainly to me. There's just too many

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extensions now, and it's like there's too much choice. The paradox of choice for like, "What

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should I do? How should I set this up?" Whereas Zed's a bit cleaner. It comes with a lot of

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code syntax highlighting and code linting built in without you having to set up anything. And I only

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had to do a couple of little tiny configuration changes to make it so that I could use the

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CircuitPython stubs with it. So yeah, it looks pretty good. Yep, it's written in Rust, which I

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think really contributes to the speed. I probably should have mentioned that as well. Nice. What's

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your next one? If you've been reading the Hackaday blog recently, you might have seen this article.

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I was very happy to see that my friend Leah Buechley was mentioned on Hackaday recently.

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She's a professor at the University of New Mexico, and for the last few years has been applying C&C

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and advanced mathematical techniques to ceramics and clay, creating shapes and overhangs and angles

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and structures that I wouldn't think possible in clay, let alone 3D printer plastic.

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They're using these commercially available 3D clay printers, which I didn't know existed,

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but they've augmented them with special tricks, sometimes with special algorithms to feed

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the slicer, sometimes with special formulations of clay. And if Leah Buechley's name is familiar,

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it's because she's also the creator of the LilyPad Arduino sewable electronic system

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from about 15 years ago, and the echoes of which, the round PCB with big pads,

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you can see in the Circuit Playground Express boards that are very popular at Adafruit.

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So the recent thing that she came out with, her and her team, is called Cerametal. It's a way of

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3D printing metal on the desktop using a custom metalized clay. And once it's printed, it's fired

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in a kiln, and it gets centered into a solid metal part. So you just have like a standard,

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like tiny 3D printer, you print out this clay onto a platform, and then you put that into the kiln,

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and it becomes a metal object. Like, what? So this custom metal clay is just made from metal powder,

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xanthan gum, and a few other ingredients, and you just mix it together in a literal, like,

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kitchen stand mixer. To slice the model that they want to print out, they couldn't use a standard

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slicer like Cura, because the clay, once you start extruding it, you can't stop. It just kind of

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keeps coming out because of the way that the mechanical materials of the clay works. So they

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had to create a new slicer that supports this continuous extrusion. And so it's sort of like

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vase mode. If you've ever done vase mode in 3D printing, it's sort of like that, but it will do

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fills because they want to, like, make a filled object. And the print resolution is pretty

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impressive. They can do a 0.6 millimeter nozzle and 0.3 millimeter layer height, which is pretty

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comparable to a standard 3D printer. The cost is around 2k. That's for, like, basically half of

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that is for the printer, half of that is for a kiln. And when you compare that to, like, the 50k

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to 130k for an SLS, Selective Laser Sentry Machine, that's pretty darn cheap. And you're doing this

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all on your desk, you know? A desk, and then you take it to a kiln. And, but one of the more

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interesting things to me, like, so I'll never do this because, you know, I don't play with clay,

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but I think it's really fascinating that you can make metal objects now. In their slicer,

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they use an algorithm called Fermat Spirals to fill in the spaces, because one of the

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characteristics of the Fermat Spiral is that it guarantees that the area between the lines

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are equal area, which is perfect for when you're laying out a base that should be filled. I'll

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include a couple of links in the show notes for some things to play with. Fermat Spirals are also

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very pretty. They're sort of a parabolic spiral. There's also a great video that Leah gave for the

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ACM SIGCHI conference that goes through all of this. And so I highly recommend watching the

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video. It's about maybe 14 minutes long. I read the Hackaday article, and I thought it did a good

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job of explaining, you know, how you put the powder together with the clay and then fire it in the

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kiln. But one of the things that caught my eye is they said that the shrinkage is consistent,

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which has got to be awesome for metal parts, because then you're getting, you know, the same

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part every time. Yeah, that's one of the, that's, my wife does a bunch of clay stuff, and that's

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one of the things that you're always having to figure out is clay always shrinks when you fire

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it. But the amount of shrinkage really is based on the thickness of your piece, the tallness of the

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piece, the amount of like wetness that day of the piece. And so like, you essentially have to like

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make a couple of trial runs to get something of a consistent dimension. And so the fact that they can

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get a very consistent output is huge. Oh, that's interesting. I had no idea. So yeah, what's your

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number two for this week? Way back in episode four, in November of 2022, we talked about Matter,

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the open source IoT specification that's managed by the Connectivity Standards Alliance, which is a

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mouthful. If you don't remember, don't know of Matter, it requires a Matter controller, such as

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a Google Nest device, Apple HomePod or Apple TV, or most Amazon Echo devices. And then for example,

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you can buy a Matter supported smart light bulb and set it up with Apple HomeKit, Google Assistant

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or Alexa without having to worry about what it's compatible with. If it's Matter compatible,

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it'll work with them all. I'll link to a great article from Wired Magazine on what is Matter.

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The reason I bring it up is Scott Shawcroft, CircuitPython's lead developer, shared in a

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recent Python on hardware newsletter update that he's working on an open source implementation of

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Matter called CircuitMatter. Don't let the name fool you. It will be a pure Python implementation

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of the Matter specification that will also be compatible with CircuitPython and potentially

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even MicroPython. Jeff Epler has already implemented IPv6 networking support in CircuitPython,

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which Matter needs as well. This leads me to believe, and this is just a guess,

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is that Adafruit might make a Matter compatible microcontroller at some point in the future.

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There's already a board from SparkFun that is Matter compatible, but only with Arduino,

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not with CircuitPython. I'll link to that in the show notes as that came out this past January.

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Now, if you read the article from Wired on Matter that I mentioned earlier, it does mention that

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the functionality supported by Matter is mostly pretty basic for now, limited to on/off, start/stop,

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and notifications from the device. But if you could program a microcontroller to even just do

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a start/stop instead of always sending data via MQTT, for example, to take a measurement,

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I could see a number of different use cases that pop into my mind for that.

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It's very, very early in development, but I think it's something I'm excited to keep an eye on.

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Yeah, the Matter stuff is really interesting. With the recent talk of Swift Embedded,

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Swift's the programming language that Apple uses for all their devices, what we should be using

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when we write apps for the iPhone or whatever, they recently released a bunch of Matter examples

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that run on the ESP32-C6 dev board, which I think there's an ESP32-C6 Adafruit product as well.

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These are just another version of the ESP32, it's not like a special chip,

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it's not super expensive, it's meant to be really low cost to go into smart light bulbs

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and things like that. I can't wait to see more hobbyist-level things that use Matter.

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Yep, exactly. And it'll probably have to be an S3 board because it needs

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Bluetooth and Wi-Fi, so that S3 is probably the base minimum.

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So that's our show. I mentioned the special announcements. You want to tune in for a

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special live episode of The Bootloader on CircuitPython Day, coming up on Friday, August 16th.

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Thanks to Debra Ansell for taking time to share her experience at Teardown 2024,

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and thank you for listening. For show notes, transcripts, and to join our newsletter,

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visit thebootloader.net. Until next time, stay positive.

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(chiming)